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Re: Community Discipleship

11/25/2006 4:57:50 PM

julieann

14 posts

Re: Community Discipleship
(United States)

I have been reading this stream for a few days now and I think there has been so much good stuff said. I want, however to return back to Kyle's original question. My understanding of what Kyle is asking has more to do with how the very structure of church services and discipleship groups can encourage or discourage the kind of openness that Robin is speaking of. I think I agree with Kyles supposition, the current structure of church services in evangelical Christianity is at times stifling to the work the Holy Spirit and can be discouraging to deep, Spirit filled, biblical community. Is it possible to structure a church service in such a way that it affirms the truth that every member of the congregation is vital to the Body of Christ? It's funny, because throughout the history of the church, we have had a love hate relationship with this concept. There is a tension between community and authority. There has always been a fear that if theology were open to the masses, scripture would be thrown around willy nilly and doctrine would turn to mush. There is a percieved safety in the "downloadable" sermons. At least the congregation is not getting false doctrine (one would hope). Indeed, there is a risk in opening up the diologue of orthodoxy to the masses. How informed are the masses? How in tune with the Holy Spirit are the masses? This may seem like it is coming out of left field, but in my personal experience growing up in church, I see one of the greatest lacks as being that I was never taught how to study the Bible. I did plenty of Bible studies, no doubt, but never received any even basic hermeneutics training. I start with this because, if indeed evangelicalism is Bible centered, every person in the church should have a basic understanding of hermeneuitics. This feels foundational to me because if this were indeed the case, there would be more freedom to engage in communal scripture reading practices like Lectio Divina, liturgy, or even scripture discussion without the chasm between the "teacher" and the "learner". In my own life, this bit of head knowledge did not push me more into my head, but gave me so much more freedom to engage with scripture from the heart. This created experiences that I could not help but talk about, and fortunately, I was in a community where others had expereinces of their own to share. In many ways, its the whole give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach him how to fish and he'll eat forever dynamic. There are very few people in the church that really know how to fish. They come to Sunday morning services to "get fed," but never start really fishing on their own, so they never know what bounty is on the other side of the boat. There is a part of me that would love it if next Sunday pastors would pause their current teaching, give a crash course in hermeneutics, and say that next week instead of the message there would be a time of Lectio Divina on that passage. How powerful this could be.

11/26/2006 8:44:27 PM

aphekah

16 posts

Re: Community Discipleship
(N/A)

Robin and Julieann, I have enjoyed this dialog as well. To return for a moment to what Robin talked about, I would like to share an experience I had recently, and wondered if it would help in this discussion. I was in a group for a while, where there was a very interesting mix of people - sexes, ages, ethnicities, educational background, etc. Basically, if you could name it, it was different among us! There was a lot of good conversation, and everyone had been a devoted Christian for a long time, was deeply involved in ministry, and clearly had a heart for living a passion filled life with God.

That said, there was clearly, more clearly than I have ever seen, a distinct different in the ability of the members of the group to discern the Spirit. Several times someone would give advice to another member of the group that was clearly not from God - and I would actually say was the opposite that they should hear. If I might take a venture at a guess why this was, I believe it had to do with a lack of training in discernment, which would include things like knowing oneself, understanding the Word (like Julieann mentioned), even things like experience in small groups. Robin, I think groups like your may help this, or in other groups, like the one you mentioned, might actually hurt it.

To touch back on what Julieann started with, as well as with the original post was, I also wonder what it would look like for a church to grow in such a way that the people grew in their ability to discern - to know when to share a verse with someone or when to silently pray; to know when to lay hands on someone or to know when to admonish them. I just wonder how many people have been given back advice, or like in my group, hear the opposite of what they needed to hear, and have grown disenfranchised from the church because of it? And I suppose the further question would then be, how can these groups be guided by the leadership of the church, without being governed by them? I guess that is the million dollar question huh? In any case, thanks for the thoughts. Blessings.

11/26/2006 10:12:59 PM

Robin

20 posts

Re: Community Discipleship
(N/A) Modified By Robin on 11/26/2006 3:13:31 PM)

Good to see you again, julieann and aphekah.
You both raised such excellent points on how can we do church in a way that allows the Spirit to move. I'm thinking especially of your question, aphekah, "how can these groups be guided by the leadership of the church, without being governed by them?"
As much as I would like to reply right away, I'm having a chronic pain episode this weekend and my attention span is not all there, so I am going to have to chew on this one and get back to you. I will be thinking about all the times God has significantly met me at a place of need and what percentage of those events took place in a church or some other location and how was the Spirit free to move on that occasion. I'll let you know what I recall. Bless you both, Robin

growing, learning, enjoying the ride

11/27/2006 3:34:55 PM

aphekah

16 posts

Re: Community Discipleship
(United Kingdom)

Robin, I hope that you are feeling ok - that didn't sound good. Know that you are being prayed for. As for the groups, I thought of another possible example. In the church I am in right now, the head pastor is very "hands-off" when it comes to the small groups. I respect that because he doesn't need to have his hands in everything and he clearly doesn't have a control issue. My worry though is that it is just being assumed that good things are happening in those groups. And maybe there are good things - but can the church be sure. Can the church know that its members are growing in their knowledge of God, that their faith is deepening, that their people are using their gifts and ministering to one another? My worry is that we have decided that "small groups" are the answer, and just hope that good things happen. In my experience, even with faithful believers, often times there are so many other issues brought to the small-group-table that holistic growth rarely happens. Does anyone else feel this way?

11/29/2006 2:25:11 AM

Robin

20 posts

Re: Community Discipleship
(N/A)

Just want to say thanks for praying, aphekah. God gave me much relief today and I am relaxed and grateful.

By the way, how do I pronounce your name? My first pass was "uh-feck-uh" but phonetic guesses don't always pay off.

So back to the topic. A couple thoughts. First of all, in order for a pastor to lead and not control small groups in their congregation, I think it would be great if the pastor knew the small group leaders very well to begin with. So much of discernment and leadership comes from maturity and wisdom from a good deal of time walking with God. So first of all if the pastor knew the small group leader by heart then they know that person to be somone walking in love and discernment the Jesus way. That takes a good deal of the risk of something flakey happening all the time at the small group. Second, in the context of that friend/disciple bond between pastor and small group leader, it would be natural and very non-inquisition for the pastor to ask the small group leader questions like "so tell me what God is doing in your group? (or other open ended question) followed up by so can you give me the high/low? What did you find most beautiful or healing that happened in the lives of the folks in your group in the last few weeks? Has there been anything aukward or flakey that you had to deal with? Anything that I can lend you my support and counsel and encouragement? How is your own heart today? Are you recieving what you need so you don't get burnout? That way, the pastor is disclipling the small group leaders and the small group leaders are discipling their little flock. I know this might sound a little idealistic, but I have seen small group leaders who live this kind of relational discipleship and it is just beautiful. Folks who take the needs of their own heart seriously, embrace the healing Jesus gives and invite others to do the same. Slow change from the inside out that lasts for eternity. These people don't need to get jazzed up by an evangelism campaign once a year. They are living a life that shouts "hey Jesus is setting captives free! come and get it!"

Not like I'm passionate about that or anything. <smile>

growing, learning, enjoying the ride

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